Dog training discs and rattle bottles were once quite popular ways of correcting unwanted behavior in pet dogs.
Along with pet correctors which squirt compressed air.
In this article we’re going to look at how rattle bottles and dog training discs work, and why their use in dog training is declining.
Using sound to distract a naughty dog
There was an interesting discussion on my Facebook group recently.
About the use of a ‘rattle bottle’.
A member of the group suggested the use of a rattle bottle to ‘distract’ a dog that was engaging in unwanted behavior.
Another member of the group pointed out that the use of such a tool was not in keeping with the ethos of the group because a rattle bottle is an aversive for most dogs.
A somewhat heated debate then broke out as to whether training with rattle bottles or dog training discs is a form of punishment, bearing in mind that it doesn’t actually harm the dog.
Or whether it should be classed as an interrupter.
So, the aim of this article is to clear up this issue. Let’s take a look at the contentious items first!
What are dog training discs?
Dog training discs are a collection of small metal discs held together on a ring like a bunch of keys.
When thrown on the floor they make a clattering noise.
What is a dog training rattle bottle
A rattle bottle is simply an empty container part-filled with loose stones/gravel or beads.
When the bottle is thrown or shaken, it makes quite a loud and distinctive noise.
What is a pet corrector?
A pet corrector is an aerosol container that simply squirts compressed air when you press the button.
Rather like something you might buy to clean dust from a camera lens or computer keyboard.
What all these tools have in common is that they make a noise which ‘startles’ the dog.
The use of rattle bottles, discs and correctors
You may have seen these tools used in dog training sessions on television.
They are popular because they often seem to produce quite a dramatic reaction in the dog, with the dog veering away from what it was doing when the bottle is shaken or thrown.
So the dog’s behavior is interrupted right?
That makes the rattle bottle or dog discs an interrupter, doesn’t it?
Well no. It doesn’t.
If you give your dog a hard slap whilst he is sniffing another dog’s bottom, it may well interrupt his behavior. But that does not make the slap an interrupter.
To understand this properly, we really need to look at what defines a ‘punisher’ and compare that with what defines an ‘interrupter’.
Punishers and interrupters
A punisher is any consequence to a dog’s behavior, that makes that behavior less likely in the future.
So, if you slap your dog as he approaches his dinner bowl, he will be a lot more cautious about approaching his bowl again.
He may even avoid his bowl until he is very hungry indeed.
The slap is a punisher.
If you make a kissy noise with your mouth as your dog approaches his dinner bowl, and the dog looks up at you or comes to you, that, is an interrupter.
It won’t affect how your dog feels about his dinner bowl five minutes later.
He’ll still go back and tuck into his dinner.
The kissy noise was not a punisher, it was an interrupter.
Using noise as an interrupter in dog training
An ‘interrupter’ breaks the dog’s concentration on what he is doing, usually momentarily. This may be sufficient for the handler to then give the dog another cue.
The power of an interrupter depends on how well it has been conditioned.
If every time you make a kissy noise with your mouth, you give your dog a pat and say ‘good dog’ your interrupter will be weak. It certainly won’t work when he is about to tuck into his dinner, or chase the neighbour’s cat.
If you have associated your kissy noise with some powerful rewards such a juicy roast chicken or the chance to fetch his favorite ball, your interrupter will be strong.
Arguably, the word ‘interrupter’ is misleading as an interrupter is usually simply another cue for the dog to look at his handler.
The important thing to note, is that a genuine interrupter does not need to be startling or upsetting in any way for the dog. It is simply a noise that he responds to in a consistent way (looking at you for instructions).
Most people when using what they think is an interrupter are actually using a punisher. Let’s look more closely at that.
Using noise as a punishment in dog training
Many dogs are fearful of sudden, unusual noises.
When we socialise our dogs, we expose them to as many experiences as we can. So they get used to hearing a wide variety of different everyday sounds.
For this reason, most dogs are not scared of the vacuum cleaner for example, or passing lorries, or the clattering of saucepans or a car door slamming.
These are all normal noises for the dog. But some noises are less common and are often quite scary for dogs. If a noise invokes fear, it can be used as a punishment.
This is because punishment is not just about pain. Punishment is anything that diminishes behavior, and that a dog will work to avoid. So fear can be a powerful form of punishment.
How dogs view compressed air
Many dogs for example are scared of the sudden sound of escaping or compressed air. A dog raised in the town, may be used to the sound of compressed air due to repeated exposure to air brakes in heavy goods vehicles.
Most rural dogs are not. So you might think your dog is bomb-proof to noises, but if a lorry suddenly applies air brakes next to him, he might jump.
Hot air balloons can startle many dogs when they operated the burners, and a loud squirt from an aerosol can do the same
These noises may be aversive to the dog, and he may well attempt to avoid them in the future if he can. This is the basis of the “Ttshhh” noise that some dog trainers use to change dogs’ behavior.
Of course, not all dogs will mind these sounds, but many do.
How rattle bottles and dog training discs work
Which brings us to an important point. The pet correctors, rattle bottle and the training discs are all just noises.
But, they are noises that most dogs are not familiar with. They are sudden, sharp, unusual noises.
They are not intrinsically defined as either punishers or interrupters.
Whether or not they can be used as punishers or interrupters depends on the dog, and how he feels about the noise.
For those dogs that don’t find the noise intrinsically aversive, dog training discs may come with instructions on training the dog to see the discs as a punishment marker. In other words a sound that predicts a punishment.
But for most dogs, these tools are naturally aversive, and using them is a form of punishment. So if you are considering buying them, you need to be sure that you are comfortable with training this way.
Punishment is determined by the dog
The most important point of all this topic is simply this:
Whether or not an item is aversive, and will have a ‘punishing effect’ is determined by the reaction of the dog to that item, not by the item itself or the actions of its owner.
If your dog does not like the sound of compressed air escaping, or the “Ttshhh” noise you make with your mouth, these noises are aversive for that dog.
In the same way, if your dog does not like the sound of training discs being chucked across the room or a rattle bottle being thrown or shaken, this items are aversive for that dog. Whether or not this is a natural aversion, or one you have carefully conditioned.
Punishment does not have to be painful
The fact that a noise is aversive and can be used as a punishment, is something that many people don’t think about.
But once they do think about it, they may conclude that it is okay to use these training tools because they don’t actually cause pain to the dog.
And it is true, rattle bottles and training discs don’t actually cause physical harm or pain to the dog.
Does that mean you can use them?
Well, it depends on whether you want to risk the disadvantages of training with punishment, and on how you feel generally about punishing dogs.
You need to ask yourself whether or not you want to use aversives in training. Or whether you are simply looking for an ‘interrupter’. Because if it is an interrupter you want, there are better ways of creating one.
You also need to ask yourself if you want your dog to be afraid, or to learn to be more afraid, of sudden noises. Most of us do not.
Confusion over dog training
Sometimes, it seems that the more we talk over these things, the more confused we get. We can easily become tangled up in debating about no reward markers, interrupters, positives and negatives.
But there really is no need for this confusion.
In this case, the facts are quite clear cut. If a consequence to your actions is that the dog’s behavior is likely to be diminished, then that consequence was a punisher. And whatever consequence it was that you applied, was aversive for that dog.
Whether or not the dog was physically hurt is not relevant to the definition of punishment. And this is something that confuses a great many people. It’s also a very emotive topic.
Let’s be honest
Some people have tried to avoid the way we feel about punishing dogs by changing the word punisher, to diminisher, and the word punishment to correction.
But changing the language does not change the facts. Because the truth is, using rattle bottles is indeed usually a form of punishment. And when we use punishment, it is a good idea to be honest and upfront about it.
Sometimes people unwittingly use punishment because the word is misconstrued or dressed up as ‘correction’ Using the word punisher does at least draw attention to what we are actually doing with the dog.
How do you want to train your dog?
Aversives are anything that dogs prefer to avoid. Aversives can be used as punishers to diminish unwanted behavior in our dogs.
Whether or not something is aversive, is defined by the dogs reaction to it, not by the object itself.
Most dogs find rattle bottles and training discs aversive, at least initially.
A significant proportion of dogs find rattle bottles very aversive indeed.
So if you are using them, you are using punishment not an interrupter.
Punishment is a hard word. But if you have found a noise that your dog will work to avoid, you are using punishment.
Whether or not this is OK with you, is a very personal decision. But you need to be aware of what you are doing in order to make that decision objectively.
More Information
Share Your Thoughts!
How about you? Does this make sense to you, or are you still confused about the difference between punishers and interrupters?
Share your thoughts in the comments box below.
Penny Williams says
Hello! Advice please! Our 14 week old is an absolute joy with one exception. He keeps chasing our small chickens, catching them and chewing their necks. I know he is going to kill one soon. We are now keeping them in their run in the morning but as they have always been completely free range we don’t feel it is fair to keep them in all day. The issue is our cat flap which for now he can get out of quite easily. If I don’t notice I suddenly hear squawking and have to run out to rescue poor Star or Mirabelle from the vampire jaws. We can shut the door on the cat flap but that means the cats can’t get out/in past the utility and getting my young kids to keep a door closed is tantamount to asking them to share their Christmas chocolate with me – not a hope in hell!
Anyway, I have spent the last 5 weeks ish trying to desensitise him using a lead and treats but we aren’t getting anywhere. The bigger chickens have told him off but the little ones don’t have the gumption. I met a woman with two cockapoos the other day who said with hers she filled a bottle with stones and every time they ran after the chickens, she threw it down/shook it hard and shouted, “NO!” The dogs stopped chasing and now live happily alongside the chickens. I have now read your article.
My question is how to train the pup out of this behaviour? Am I just going to have to wait for the chickens to meet a sticky end or try to rehome them before it’s too late? They are my girls and I love them dearly so really would rather keep them, but at the same time better happy elsewhere than dead on my lawn.
Doreen A Bosworth says
I have never used a noise maker. That said, I was reading this article and the thoughts that came to mind are. I have used a clicker to help train positive behaviour. Isn’t using a different sound to communicate negative behaviour simular.
Pippa says
The clicker is an event marker – it tells the dog he got something right and that a reward is on its way. Some people use the word good instead.
You can indeed use a sound as an event marker to predict punishment, some people use a finger snap or the word ‘bad’ for this.
But that isn’t how rattle bottles and training discs work. They are forms of punishment, not event markers. They have the potential to ‘punish’ a dog because many dogs find them aversive or upsetting. Whereas event markers are meaningless in isolation. They have to be paired with an aversive or a reward in order to be used in training
The way you can differentiate between an event marker and the punishment or reward it is being used to predict, is to ask yourself if the dog found the noise aversive the very first time he hears it. So for example, the first time your dog hears a click, before you pair it with rewards, it is usually meaningless to him.
The same is not true of rattle bottles and training discs. Most dogs dislike them the first time they hear them. Hope that helps . 🙂
Heather says
I’m a trainer and have used the Pet Convincer successfully on relentless jumpers and nippers. It’s not something I always use but I do see it as an interrupter. When the dog stops the unwanted behavior, I quickly praise and treat and start the training. I’ve read all the pros and cons and for me it has been a great thing. My clients are usually so grateful to finally be able to tackle the training part of the issue without getting knocked to the ground anymore or bitten all day long.
Gaynor Jones says
I have a 19 month shin tsu which growls and sometimes bites myself and my partner, when we pass him.it happens more with my partner than me, nothing has happened to him for him to have gone this way.I’m wondering if a rattle bottle would make things worse, doing eye to eye contact with him.but only just started, he also bites us when we’ve got to pick him up, but have no option as he don’t like stairs or steps, ???
Lewis says
Just something folks might want to consider when it comes to using punishment/correction in training – specifically when it comes to quite a disruptive unwanted behaviour.
Punishment very rarely if ever actually addresses the cause of that behaviour only the symptoms of the issue.
For example if your dog is barking at traffic or other dogs – it’s because they’re uncomfortable about the situation. Training the dog to think that when it barks at other dogs a scary noise occurs, doesn’t make them feel any better about the situation.
Undeniably it’s harder and more work to teach the dog to feel better about the situation, but surely knowing that your dog is comfortable and feeling in that environment is so much more rewarding for you and your dog?
Using punishment can have some worrying underlying affects that you may well not see in your dog until later making them unpredictable and just unhappy.
Alex says
This is the most useful insight. I have a young dog who barks and lunges at other dogs when in the car and I started using a rattle bottle today. After reading this comment I will stop as although I am desperate for the behaviour to stop I don’t want to punish confuse or make her worse.
Cindy says
We have a 4 year old English Cocker spaniel that we recently adopted from a shelter. She is NOT trained to walk on a leash. She pulls and lunges as though it opening gate at the horse races. I have tried everything to get her to calm down on the leash and walk with a relaxed leash. Today I used the rattle bottle and it worked like a charm by the second rattle. I even set the bottle down and continued on our walk without it and she did very well. I realize it may take a few more times for it to sink in her head that she is to walk nicely and there will be no harsh noise. I didn’t want to result in startling her but I tried everything else. My arm is thankful for the less pull and we are both thankful for no struggles.
jane says
I have a rescue 7 year old jack russell dog i’ve had him 6 months worst fault is he will not pass other dogs without barking have worked with trainer and he is no better lost at what to do with him any suggestions would appreciate any comme ts
baines says
I did use a rattle bottle on a rehome dog we found.As he would bark at people and dogs..So I used it three times,at no time did the dog see the bottle,as it was three stones in bottle,and he did not see where it came From.But it worked.By the way the dog was 8years old German Shepard.I was it’s last hope, as the next stop was put to sleep.I was pleased it worked as I was able to keep the dog till he was 12 years old. But I do not use them now as it is only Positive Methods now.!
Plamen Ivanov says
Very good tips. I learned some new things from your article. But the main idea is never to give up when talking about dog training! 🙂
Daisy says
This is a very helpful article. Our 7 month old puppy barks loudly when we take her to puppy training or in a pub or cafe if there is another dog there – or when she sees another dog on a walk. On a walk I can get her past the other dog by using treats but it is not working at puppy training or pubs or cafes. ( She sometimes barks at people, too.)
At one dog training class, the trainer (who is really good) was using a bottle with pebbles to stop a small dog from incessant barking (I normally use treats) and a friend recommended discs which stopped her dogs from barking. After reading your article I now have doubts.
I have absolutely no wish to use any sort of punishment training with our puppy but she is very tense and unhappy when she is barking, finds it hard to socialise with other dogs despite all our efforts and just constantly feeding her with treats when we are in a cafe or elsewhere is not good for her. (She gets plenty of exercise – and it is her only ‘fault’.)
We have just started using an Adaptil collar and are hoping this might work but any other advice would be gratefully received.
kayleigh says
Take your pup out of the class. It’s obviously too much for her right now. The more she practices the behaviour the worse it will get. Plus, if they’re using aversives I don’t think it’s the best place for her to be. Meanwhile:
– Go to the park every day, sit on a bench with your pup, watch the world go by. Give her treats for seeing dogs at a distance. If she reacts to the dogs they’re too close, You’ll get a feel for what her ‘threshold’, the distance at which she starts to react, is.
– When you know what her threshold is, you’re equipped to work with her under it. Eventually that threshold will decrease, and decrease, and decrease. If you have friends with calm dogs they will come in very handy 🙂 google ‘look at that’ game, also check out the kikopup channel on youtube.
Hope this was helpful. x